The Round Table Hour

Prayer by A. J. Meiklejohn, of Den­ver, Colo.

L. E. Froom, Chairman: Highest spirituality and greatest efficiency in service go hand in hand. And as our hearts reach out after God that we may be filled with His righteousness and become more efficient workmen, it is important that we consider frankly and thoughtfully the problems which confront our ministry.

One of the greatest issues that con­fronts every pastor today is his re­sponsibility before God for the shep­herding of the sheep. We are account­able to Him before whom we stand as shepherds, for the lives and care of those for whom we are directly respon­sible. Many church members are slip­ping away from us, and at this council we ought to seek God most earnestly as we study this problem of "shepherd­ing the sheep," and certain related sub­jects, such as are listed in our coun­cil folder under Round Table Topics, Nos. 3 and 4, "Converted Converts Our Goal" and "Conservation of Our Fruitage." Elder J. L. McElhany will introduce the problems by a general presentation. Two other speakers will follow. Then we will take the remain­ing portion of this period for very careful study and discussion, and per­haps the crystallization of some of our conclusions, for future guidance.

1. Shepherding the Sheep

When we think of the value of a redeemed soul, of the price that was paid by God Himself in the gift of His Son, and that that price would have been paid for just one soul, we, as representatives of the Lord Jesus, ought to be convinced of the import­ance of doing everything possible on our part to save every soul. I believe that there needs to be a great awaken­ing on the part of our entire ministry to the value of souls. I fear we have come to the place where we are in­fluenced by an attitude on the part of some of our workers and many of our church boards, wherein they look with considerable indifference upon souls that are becoming discouraged and are slipping away.

It is much easier to call the church board together during the latter part of December, check over the church list, and recommend that a lot of per­sons be dropped from the church mem­bership, than it is to go out in search of the straying sheep. The latter plan means following the example of the Master Himself, but the other method does not require spiritual consecra­tion or earnest endeavor. I am pro­foundly convinced that we must do all we can to change that tendency. As conference presidents, as pastors of churches, as workers in all phases and capacities in this work, I believe we ought to do our utmost to change that tendency, and to impress upon the church boards the great necessity of spiritual shepherding of the sheep and of conserving our membership.

In reference to the North American field, I have noted down that the mem­bership of this field now stands at 117,­771, while for the preceding quadren­nial term it was 108,802. During the past four years, 28,218 baptisms were reported, with 7,242 added on profes­sion of faith, making a total of 36,460 accessions. Approximately 9,000 of these were added to our membership, forming the net increase. There were approximately 8,000 deaths to be de­ducted. By adding to the deaths the increase in our membership, and de­ducting that from the baptisms and those received on profession of faith, there are left about 19,000 people to be accounted for. Where are they?

"Oh," someone says, "we are in the shaking time!" While that is true in a degree, yet we are not justified in making that an excuse for hap­hazard, careless work in dealing with human souls. Of course, it must be expected that some will slip away; but the present percentage is altogether too large. The 19,000 souls to be ac­counted for, who have slipped away during the last four years, presents a situation of deepest concern to every conference president, every officer, every minister, and every worker in the Lord's cause. Think of what it means to sustain the loss of a constituency equal to that of one of our largest union conferences. Here is a challenge to us to redouble our efforts and seek to discover, and change, if possible, the conditions which cause such a situation.

I would like to refer just as em­phatically and earnestly to the need of evangelism as to this particular phase of our problem,—the sheherding of the sheep. These are two ends of the same subject,—the need of soul winning on the one hand, and the need of conserving what we gain on the other hand. But, my friends, I be­lieve that one of our difficulties today in North America—and I am not speaking here for other parts of the world field—is the fact that we are taking into our churches unconverted people. It is this that is causing so much trouble and anxiety to our church boards. I believe there are a number of definite procedures which should be kept before our attention as preventive measures.

Preventive Measures

1. Thorough instruction of every candidate for baptism in all the prin­ciples of the message, before he is baptized. Every soul who responds to this message has a right to a thor­ough and intelligent understanding of all the principles of the message. But today there are hundreds of people being brought into the church without that understanding. I think you will all admit that to be true. Who is re­sponsible for such a situation? We may not wish to answer that question; but, my friends, let us resolve that in so far as it is in our power, we will change that situation.

2. The right of the church to exam­ine every candidate, either publicly before the church or before the church board, before baptism is administered. Perhaps some of our evangelists may say, "That is carrying the matter a little too far." But I do not believe that any preacher in this message should be the sole judge of a person's fitness for admittance into the church. That decision should be made by the church itself. I hold that the church that grants to you and to me the au­thority to preach, has the right to pass on the product of our preaching; and I believe we ought not to deprive the church of the right to examine every candidate. Of course I recognize that there are times when exceptions should be made, as, for instance, when a man goes forth and raises up a new company and organizes them into a church, and every member of the church is a new convert. But I am referring now to our long-established churches, where the members have been in the truth for years. In such a case, I believe the church ought to exercise the right of examining new converts.

3. Every minister should refuse to baptize any candidate who does not give the clearest evidences of conver­sion and of a definite experience in the Lord Jesus. Church membership is a spiritual relationship; it rests solely upon spiritual relationship to the Lord Jesus. And every minister, before baptizing a candidate, ought to be sure that the person he baptizes is con­verted, and knows by experience what it means to be born again. Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he can­not see the kingdom of God," and I believe that that is just as essential a requirement for church membership as to believe in the coming of the Lord, to keep the Sabbath, or to accept any other point of doctrinal truth which we as a denomination hold. In our examination of candidates for baptism, we ought to examine them upon the question of their Christian experience, and find out whether or not they are truly converted; and if we find they have not yet entered into that spiritual experience, let us get down on our knees and pray them into that spirit­ual experience. It can be done.

4. More faithful and earnest work in the pastoral care of the churches, seeking to lift the spirituality of the members, and endeavoring to reclaim the erring. I believe in all that we as a denomination are doing along the various lines of missionary activity; but none of these things are to become substitutes for the heeding of that exhortation given to us as shepherds, "Feed My Sheep." It is because of failure to give spiritual care to our churches, to lead the members into deeper spirituality, that we face such a sad situation today. I believe that if we will give attention to feeding with spiritual food the flock which God has intrusted to our care, it will be possible to save many a soul who is in danger of becoming cold and in­different, and drifting away. There is urgent need of going after those who are slipping, who are growing cold, and are losing their way. You will notice in the parable of the lost sheep that it was not the lamb that strayed away; it was the sheep. I think we ought to go after the stray­ing lambs, but we should also seek for the straying sheep.

5. Put a stop to the practice followed in some churches, of cutting off large numbers from the membership just be­fore the close of each year. I need not tell you why they do that. It has come to be a current phrase, "It is now time to clean up the church list!" Did you ever hear that? It is simply an excuse for neglecting this pastoral care of the sheep. I am so sorry, my friends, that any church should cut off from its membership any except for the cause of apostasy and refusal to return to the church. I do not be­lieve in our churches' carrying dead membership; but to cut people off simply because of certain situations which prevail in the matter of making and keeping church goals, I think is positively wrong.

Summarizing the Safeguards

There is a growing conviction on the part of our brethren who are standing as leaders in this work, that something must be done to change the present trend of things; that we must find a way to stop this drift toward the world. About two years ago, at the time of the Autumn Council in Spring­field, Mass., the union conference pres­idents came together and spent some time in the study of this problem of how to conserve our church member­ship. About that same time the breth­ren asked me to prepare a reading for the Week of Prayer, and as the burden of this problem rested very deeply on my heart, I made it the basis of my appeal. This last autumn, at Colum­bus, Ohio, our union and local confer­ence presidents in North America met again for council, and we made this very topic that we are considering the basis of part of our discussion at that time.

There must be recognition of the fact that church membership rests upon a spiritual basis. All should be taught what it means to become a member of Christ's body; and it is the duty of the minister who is sent to organize the church or to administer baptism, to see that the candidates know the principles for which the church stands. I do not believe that the preacher should hold back any part of the principles of this message, but that the message ought to be taught to these people in all its full­ness.

The following points should be kept in mind, as forming a solid construe-

Live basis for bringing about the de­sired change in our situation; and my conviction is that much depends upon the minister's relation to these points as to whether success or failure at­tends his work.

1. Baptism the door into the church.

2. Preparation for baptism.

3. Public examination of candidates.

4. The church itself makes decision as to who are prepared.

5. Ministers should give thorough instruction previous to baptism.

6. Due caution in receiving mem­bers who are unknown.

In reference to this last point, I am aware that perplexity often arises through a person's presenting a letter from a pastor of one of our churches and wishing to unite with the church, and no opportunity is afforded for knowing whether or not the candidate has been thoroughly prepared accord­ing to the true spiritual basis. A similar perplexity may arise under other conditions. I knew a very capable, godly, devoted man who was in great perplexity in this matter. An evangelistic effort had been held in the community, and at the close of the effort the evangelist brought to this pastor a list of names, and said, "Now, I wish that on next Sabbath you would vote these people into church mem­bership." It was a long list of names, and being a prudent man, he decided he would first become acquainted with these people. He started out to visit them, and this was the result: some of those people he never found, for they could not be found; some of them, when found, repudiated the idea that they were Seventh-day Adventists; some of them were partially in­structed; and some he found ready for baptism. Out of that whole list there were only about twenty-five per­sons who were actually prepared for church membership.

The next step which this wise pas­tor took was to invite those twenty-five people to be present at a meeting of the entire church, and he examined them there before the church, so that the church might have the opportunity of knowing just who they were taking in as members of the church. That action saved that church board a great deal of trouble and perplexity. Suppose that pastor had acted on the sug­gestion of the evangelist, and had voted in that list just as it was handed to him. The situation which would have resulted from such an action need not be explained.

These are some of the items upon which we are endeavoring to place par­ticular emphasis at this time; and I would appeal to you as a body of workers, to give greater heed to the admonition of our Master, "Feed My sheep," and to reach out after the straying members of the fold and bring them back, and give them a shepherd's care; that we may put a stop to this great loss of members, which, in my judgment, is one of the most alarming and serious tendencies which have developed in our history as the people of God.

2. The Conservation of Fruitage

C.B. Haynes, president, South Amer­ican Division: I join Elder McElhany in the conviction that this is one of the most important subjects that we can discuss. If we will adopt the measures which he has recommended for the safeguarding of the church, and exercise the care that he has outlined in seeing to it that those whom we accept as members in our churches are fully acquainted with what we teach, and also have a living fellowship with Jesus Christ, it will not be necessary for us to exercise our minds very much about the con­servation of fruitage.

There was a time in my ministry when I felt that one reason why we were losing so many members was that, in preaching the message and re­ceiving members into the church, there had not been exercised a sufficient amount of care to make people ac­quainted with the doctrinal teachings of the church. I still adhere to that view, although I have added something to it during recent years. I do still believe that it is of supreme impor­tance, when a person joins the Seventh-day Adventist Church, that he should know what Seventh-day Adventists teach and believe. That is, he ought to know what he is professing to rep­resent by joining the church; and there ought not to be any part of this great message in its doctrinal aspects that should be hidden from the under­standing of such an individual.

I know that among our ministers two different opinions prevail with reference to this question, each group holding very sincere and earnest con­victions regarding it. First, there is a class of ministers who hold that it is the proper province of the evan­gelist to win converts to this faith and bring them in and baptize them; and that it becomes the duty of the church to shepherd them—to instruct them and to hold them in the faith after the evangelist has turned them over to the church. Meanwhile, the evangelist is to go on and win others to the same decision, and pass them over to another church; and to carry on that program indefinitely. In sup­port of that opinion, the position is taken that the gift of evangelism is entirely separate and distinct from that of a pastor; and further, that it is a part of the assigned duty of the pastor to feed, or instruct, the sheep after the evangelist has brought them into the fold.

Church membership is a spiritual re­lationship, and what else can we ex­pect but a drifting away from the church into the world when those who are brought into the church have not entered into a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ? I feel that we cannot place too much emphasis on the necessity of seeing that candidates for baptism are converted. Every pastor and every evangelist ought to make it one of his chief objectives to see that every member of his church is converted; and to that end he should put forth definite effort through the Sabbath school, the Missionary Vol­unteer service, and through that chief of all agencies, aside from his personal ministration to individuals, the Sab­bath morning service.

Sabbath Service Conserved

I scarcely know how much I ought to say about the Sabbath morning service. There was a time in my pastoral work when I found myself under very great pressure for meeting the financial needs of the church, which averaged $100 a day the entire year round. There was the expense for mortgage, church school, janitor, pipe organ, accrued interest; and in addition there was the sixty-cent-a­week goal, and the necessary effort to keep up the tithe. The man in charge of a church cannot help but feel a grave sense of pressure to meet all such financial obligations.

I got to the place where I did not know what to do, and I remember that I sat down in my study and tried to analyze the situation. I reasoned the matter out with myself something like this: "Now I meet my congregation but once a week, and that is at the Sabbath morning service. There is never any occasion except that Sab­bath morning service when I can see all the members of my congregation. I see groups of them at other times, but as an entire congregation I see them but once a week." Having reached that unmistakable conclusion, I found myself forced into a place where I had to choose between two things, as to what I was going to do with that Sabbath morning service.

My further reasoning was on this order: "I must get these things before the people; I must make appeals to them to keep up with the financial necessities of our situation. The Sab­bath morning service affords me the only opportunity, and I must shape my sermons in such a way as to per­mit time for passing on this financial pressure to the members of my con­gregation; this is my only chance."

But the conviction of my heart was that that was not the right thing to do. I said, "But I don't think it is the right thing to use the Sabbath morning service for such a purpose as that. That is the only time that I, as shepherd of this flock, can feed them with the word of God." And so I reached the necessity of making up my mind which was of most impor­tance to the flock,—whether they were fed or sheared,—and finally I was led to a settled conviction of my duty, and I said, "'Lord, this is Thy flock, and this is Thy work, and Thou knowest just what the pressure is. I am going to trust Thee. I am going to feed these people with the word of God, and not permit anything,—goals, cam­paigns, Harvest Ingathering, Big Week, or anything else in the world,—to interfere with the presentation of the word of God in the Sabbath morn­ing service."

Wholesome Effect on Finances

The results of adhering to such a decision have led to a profound con­viction that the blessing of God will rest upon the church that adopts this plan, of making spiritual things first, and that under the blessing of God it is possible to meet all financial obli­gations. Our financial results will not drop when we are reaching out after God.

The decision which I made involved the excluding from our Sabbath morn­ing services of the appeals of General Conference departmental secretaries who wanted to put over their pro­grams. But I am glad to say that when it was explained to these depart­mental secretaries what our ideals were, and what we were working toward, they co-operated, and were glad to come and preach a spiritual sermon, permitting us to take care of the campaigns in ways which we in­vented for doing so.

I do not mean that we neglected any of these campaigns or our finan­cial obligations; they went a whole lot better. In one year, during which we excluded from the Sabbath morning service every campaign of any kind, and every speaker presented a spirit­ual theme at the Sabbath morning service, the financial end of our church problem jumped from $20,000 dollars to $34,000; the foreign mission offer­ings jumped from $4,000 to $14,000 in one year; the home missions funds jumped from $2,700 to $25,000 in one year; and the total financial income from that one congregation leaped, in one year, from $27,000 to $74,000.

I believe that we need the Sabbath morning service for spiritual endeavor. I do not want to convey the idea that we should arbitrarily keep the departmental secretaries out of our program, but if we explain our situation to them, as they come to visit us, we shall find a willingness on the part of these secretaries to co-operate in that kind of program. And as we work to that end, I believe that God's Spirit will dwell in His church, and bring converting power into the hearts and lives of His people. Then they will become connected with the Lord Jesus Christ, not merely connected with an organization, not merely ac­quainted with the doctrinal expres­sions of our truth; and having a liv­ing connection with Christ, they will remain firm and steadfast in the Christian life.

3. Converted Converts Our Goal

The topic assigned to me is so closely related to the subjects dealt with by Brother McElhany and Brother Haynes, that it is not neces­sary for me to take any time to speak about the situation which surrounds us. I am sure that every minister and worker feels that the present situation needs a remedy. There are some con­ferences that have fewer members than they had ten years ago; and the drift that is taking place through per­sons' leaving the message and going back into the world, should cause every minister in this denomination to weep before God. It is a time to weep between the porch and the altar, to cry to God to take foolishness out of our lives, and to plead with Him to spare His people, lest the world, the heathen, rule over them. This is a very vital subject. I am sure no one will suggest that we do not need a remedy.

When we are in perplexity as to what we should do, it is well to turn to the writings of the Spirit of proph­ecy and see what instruction has been given for our guidance. I wish at this time to call your attention to state­ments found in Volume V of the "Testimonies for the Church." In the Bible we read that just before the end of the world there will be a situation which is most alarming to the inhab­itants of the world; and in the Spirit of prophecy we read of an alarming situation existing among God's people. I read as follows:

"I am filled with sadness when I think of our condition as a people. The Lord has not closed heaven to us, but our own course of continual back­sliding has separated us from God. Pride, covetousness, and love of the world have lived in the heart without fear of banishment or condemnation. . . . The sins that destroyed the ante­diluvians and the cities of the plain exist today—not merely in heathen lands, not only among popular profes­sors of Christianity, but with some who profess to be looking for the com­ing of the Son of man. . . . And what has caused this alarming condition? Many have accepted the theory of the truth, who have had no true conver­sion. I know whereof I speak. There are few who feel true sorrow for sin; who have deep, pungent convictions of the depravity of the unregenerate na­ture. The heart of stone is not ex­changed for a heart of flesh. Few are willing to fall upon the Rock, and be broken."—"Testimonies," Vol. V, pp. 217, 218.

The Secret of Conviction

In reading the biography of Wesley and Whitefield, and of other men whom God used so mightily in the past for the revival of spiritual life in the church, I have especially noted how those men spoke to great congrega­tions, and the power of God so accom­panied their messages that many times they could not finish their sermons be cause the people cried out from the depths of their hearts, "What shall we do?" I long for that time to come back, when the power of God will so attend our preaching and bring such conviction of sin. Today there does not seem to be much evidence of con­viction of sin. It is an easy matter to assent to the theory of truth pre­sented in evangelistic effort. At the close of a series of meetings, we often ask those who have attended the series to indicate their acknowledgment of the teachings as truth, and they will usually all stand. What we need today is the Spirit of God to bring conviction to the heart, so that people will cry out in their anxiety to know what they must do to be saved.

The Watchman's Responsibility

Listen to this statement: "The watchmen are responsible for the con­dition of the people."—"Testimonies," Vol. V, p. 235. Do you believe that? Do you accept that responsibility? It brought quite a shock to me when I first read it, and realized that, to the extent of my influence, I was jointly responsible for this terrible situation of thousands of unconverted people entering the churches, and soon slip­ping out into the world and leaving the message.

Another statement: "The people will seldom rise higher than their minis­ter."—"Gospel Workers," p. 342. I am glad that the word "seldom" is there, because I know that many of our dear people are far above where some of our ministers stand. But as a gen­eral fact, that statement is true; and a change must take place with us as leaders—in our hearts and lives. And I am determined, in my own case, to let God's work begin in my heart, and lead me onto higher ground, that I may be able to lead others onto higher ground.

David reveals the great secret of soul winning, which he found in that higher experience realized after he got hold of God in a new way, as set forth in Psalms 51:12, 13. I believe this ought to be the prayer of every min­ister: "Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; and uphold me with Thy free Spirit." Then what is going to re­sult?—"Then will I teach transgres­sors Thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto Thee." Sinners will be converted unto God when I am con­verted.

Wesley went out as a worker among the Indians, but when he came back home he wrote: 'I went to America to convert the Indians; but, O, who shall convert me? It is now two years and almost four months since I left my native country in order to teach the Georgian Indians the nature of Chris­tianity; but what have I learned my­self in the meantime? Why, what I least of all expected, that I who went to America to convert others was never myself converted to God." But after that experience of conversion, Wesley's work was attended by the power of God.

We who are working to bring in con­verted church members, need the con­verting power of God in our own lives. We must experience the new birth ourselves, and keep in constant touch with the Lord. We are all anxious to baptize people, and to see this work progress. But how often it seems that we endeavor throughout the year to baptize just as many members as we can, and then we make a desperate effort to get as many names off the church books as we can before the end of the year—working hard to get names on, and then working hard to get names taken off the church record in order that we may reach our finan­cial goal. It is a very serious situa­tion.

I will read a statement from the Spirit of prophecy, found in the Re­view and Herald of October 8, 1889:

"There are many ministers who have never been converted. They come to the prayer meeting and pray the same old lifeless prayers over and over; they preach the same dry dis­courses over and over, from week to week, and from month to month. They have nothing new and inspiring to present to their congregations, and it is evident that they are not eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man, for they have no life in them."

That is the reason why there is no life in some congregations. This mes­sage is big enough, and broad enough, and deep enough so that we can give our congregations something new and fresh every Sabbath morning, which will inspire and lift them up, and cause them to move forward. And unless the minister is constantly delv­ing into the Word, and feeding the people with new and fresh spiritual food, the spiritual life in the church will die.

The Age of Accountability

We are told that "this is an age famous for surface work."—"Testi­monies," Vol. V, p. 500. I fear that too much surface work comes into our own labors. Many phases might be discussed, but I should like to talk a little about the baptism of children, because this is a matter which has been upon my heart for years. I do not baptize children under twelve years of age, unless it is a rare ex­ception. I wish something might be done to help pastors and parents in dealing with this matter, which would result in putting a stop to the baptism of children five and six years of age. During the Week of Prayer in our schools, children who know nothing about the power of God are baptized because others are. I know what a serious thing it is, and I consider it one of the contributing causes to the difficulty we are in. Twelve years was the age of accountability—the time when Christ recognized that He was the Son of God. The baptizing of children five years of age is not far removed from the sprinkling of in­fants. I wish that there might be a raising of the standard, so that chil­dren who know nothing of conversion would not become subjects for baptism until they reach the age of account­ability. Our present policy leads to lowering our standards, and adds to our present problem in conserving our church membership.

The Effective Remedy

The most effective remedy is to have the power of God attending our min­istry, and this will come when apostolic conditions are complied with. The people who came into the church in apostolic days were converted men and women. The power of God was so great, as it was manifested in the lives of the apostles, that those who were unconverted did not dare to be­come connected with the Christian church; they feared to venture into the presence of the Lord. You remem­ber the story of Christian and Pilgrim on the way to the Celestial City. They were met at one time by an uncon­verted person, who persisted in stay­ing with them. They decided that if they just kept talking about the country yonder, this man would not want to stay in their company long. So they persisted in talking about spiritual things until the unconverted man left them. There is a basic point in that.

L. E. Froom: It is not the thought that the brethren who have introduced these various topics have given the ultimate word thereon. They have led us into the field of discussion and consideration of great principles and very practical problems, dealing pri­marily with the conservation of fruit­age, and the conversion of men and women before their induction into the church.

Now certain very proper and prac­tical questions have been asked. For example: "How is it possible for the pastor to find time to present the cam­paigns, and how can he make an ade­quate approach to a congregation if he does not use the Sabbath service?" Brother Haynes did not, I think, in­tend to convey the thought that some have evidently gathered from his ex­pressions. Brethren Haynes, Bunch, and others are now invited to participate in a round table discussion of this problem; and Brother Haynes will be­gin by leading us a little farther into this question and answering some of these inquiries.

C. B. Haynes: It would be a waste of your time, and mine, too, if I were to talk any more. I think it will be more satisfactory if you will ask direct questions, and I will endeavor to answer them as best I can.

Voice: How do you handle your finances,—the Harvest Ingathering, Big Week, et cetera?

C.B. Haynes: The thing that I wanted to impress upon you is this: While in the time for the Sabbath service we did not preach on Harvest Ingathering and Big Week, we were by no means leaving them out of our reckoning in the raising of goals. I believe that when sheep are really fed, they produce wool; and I endeavored to use the Sabbath sermon in the best way possible to produce money,—by preaching on a spiritual theme. Now, in the actual raising of funds, while we never permitted a sermon to be preached with the sole objective in mind of getting people to make pledges of money, or promises to go into the field and engage a certain length of time in campaign work, yet we did make use of every possible method for securing results, such as charts, a card system, and other things. In our weekly church bulletin we printed the announcement and particulars con­cerning the campaign. We made our appeals chiefly through the bulletin. We also circularized our people.

The agency that we found of the utmost value in our work was a card index. We had our church members all listed on a visible card index, and operated a system of check marks whereby full information concerning the status of any member could be ascertained at a glance. Suppose, for example, there was a campaign on for Review and Herald subscriptions. A check mark was placed after the name of each church member who was a subscriber to the Review, and all we needed to do to find out how our church stood in relation to the Review campaign was to glance through the card index. This card system had a line of perhaps twenty blank squares after each name,—one for Review sub­scription, one for tithe payer, one for attendance at prayer meeting, et cetera. This meant that in a Review campaign, if we found that 380 of our members were already subscribers to the Review, we did not need to spend time in talking to them about the necessity of having this paper, but we went directly after the 120 members, more or less, who were not subscrib­ers. The use of the card system en­ables the pastor to concentrate his efforts upon those who need to be reached in any particular way, in­stead of spreading the campaign all out in the Sabbath service, reaching many people who do not need to be approached at all, and thus wasting much time and energy. I found that index to be supremely valuable to me in every campaign.

Now as to personal visits: We had the church organized- in such a way that we had a group of twenty or twenty-five people upon whom we could call to make visits in the interests of this or that campaign. For in­stance, I would turn over to each a list of ten names of persons who should be solicited for subscriptions to the Review, and they would give personal attention to the matter. It would have been impossible for me to do what was accomplished in a per­sonal way by that group of helpers; and it is really surprising how many church members are anxious to engage in church work and be of assistance to the pastor.

I wish to be understood that it was not my purpose in what has been said to convey the idea that I did not make announcements regarding campaigns and goals. The main announcement regarding such things appeared in the printed bulletin, and I am sure that this made a much stronger and more lasting impression than any announce­ment made from the desk, for the peo­ple took the bulletin home with them, and the announcement was kept be­fore them all during the week. The Sabbath morning service, however, was devoted to the sermon, and pre­served free from anything along the line of campaign promotion.

Voice: Was it not true that you had a good live missionary society which gave attention to all these financial interests in their separate meetings?

C. B. Haynes: Yes, such things were taken up in their proper places. We did have a good live missionary so­ciety, and a good live leader who looked after these things in their proper time. It is possible to preserve your Sabbath morning service from everything of the kind that I have mentioned, when your church is or­ganized into groups and bands for service. One of our greatest tasks each year was to find the right person for the right place; but we persevered in this aim until we had in the church a group of 140 or more people who were officers.

A. J. Meiklejohn: I would like to ask Elder Haynes to tell us just how he takes care of the Big Week and Harvest Ingathering campaigns.

C. B. Haynes: There is always a group of individuals who respond to any call,—willing leaders who are in for everything, and who do not have to be urged to get them to respond. They are always right there on call. Then there is a larger number of people who are reluctant to engage in such work. But the pastor knows who they are, and he can arrange to have the willing leaders distributed around among them, concentrating their ef­forts and energies on getting these people to co-operate.

When the Harvest Ingathering cam­paign came along, we made full announcement in the church bulletin, and then in the announcements preced­ing the Sabbath morning service we explained in a few words that the next six weeks were to be devoted to the Harvest Ingathering,—just what that meant, and what was expected from every church member; and then we turned over to the missionary society of the church the full responsibility for carrying the work forward to suc­cessful completion. We expected the missionary society to concentrate on the campaign, and to organize and bring into service all that group of people who were reluctant to engage in such work. We did give sufficient attention to getting the campaign through, but at no time did I preach a sermon in the interests of the cam­paign directly, at the Sabbath morn­ing hour. The Big Week campaign was handled in about the same way. In every church there are people who are reluctant to engage in any cam­paign work, and there is need that much personal work be done in order to get such people into the activities of the church—personal work by bands and by groups, as well as per­sonal work by the pastor.

F.D. Wells, president, New Eng­land conference: I happened to be the home missionary secretary in the Greater New York Conference at the time Elder Haynes was pastor of the Temple church in New York City, and I see some reason why the work succeeded so well. Immediately after the eleven o'clock service, the Junior Missionary Volunteers and the mem­bers of the senior missionary society, which took in practically every mem­ber of the church, met together in a large missionary meeting, and that missionary society did the required work. It seemed the very best way was to have the church meet after the eleven o'clock service, for if this had not been done, the people would scatter and could not be brought together again. I think Elder Haynes was wise when he organized that missionary society and had it arranged so that right after the service every one went right down to his place and went to work.

H. W. Cottrell: Yes, but that work was done on the Sabbath; and the burden seems to be to preserve the Sabbath for giving spiritual food to the people. The question in my mind is, How can we avoid placing these missionary campaigns before the peo­ple on the Sabbath? This plan of having a missionary society look after the campaign work, and meet in the basement of the church immediately following the eleven o'clock preach­ing service hour, means that the whole thing is cared for on the Sabbath just the same.

C. B. Haynes: I did not know that there was a question about doing it on the Sabbath. That has not been in my mind. I think Elder Cottrell must have been living in a part of the country where the Sabbath morn­ing hour is reserved for preaching. Unfortunately, some of us have lived in other parts of the country where this is not the case, and some have reached the place where they use the Sabbath hour which rightfully belongs to the sermon, for raising money, or else do not raise any money at all.

L. E. Froom: I think it was not a question of taking time on the Sab­bath, but rather a desecration of that designated hour which should be strictly guarded for giving to the people the spiritual food which the Lord designed should be provided at the Sabbath morning service.

E. L. Maxwell, president, Austral Union, South America: It seems to me that this question is much deeper and more important than some of us are apt to consider it. I think a large part of this difficulty arises from the fact that some of us are so constituted that we feel a thing is not going unless we are running it. Many times the feeling is: "I am pastor of the church, and I want my finger, my hand, or both hands, on every activity of the church. I do not want to trust any­body with any responsibility." If we can get away from that idea, and are willing to have our dear brethren help us in what needs to be done, I do not believe we shall be bothered half so much. That is one side of the matter, and I believe that is the answer in large part.

But I believe there is another way to look at some of these things which we have to care for in our Sabbath services. I remember attending a meeting in this Auditorium some years ago when the sermon preached on the Sabbath was a money-raising sermon. I have been a preacher a good many years, and have gotten over the habit of shedding many tears when a person preaches a sermon, but I do not think I ever shed so many tears during a sermon as I did on that day. I think that was a real spiritual sermon. I don't think that any one felt that he did not get all the spiritual food he needed that day; and they handed in the sum of $150,000 that same day. While I believe it is right to eliminate all commercial matters from the Sab­bath service, yet it seems to me we should not feel that it is duty to debar from our Sabbath services any­thing that tends toward the advance­ment of this cause, even though it relates to funds which are needed for carrying on this work.

I believe that all these things can be presented in a truly spiritual manner. I believe that tithe paying can be Made a real spiritual matter; and I have known of persons' coming into the truth because they were tithe payers. I do not believe, however, that we ought to permit the Sabbath service to be known as a campaign service, or bring in anything of that nature on the Sabbath. I believe the sheep need to be fed; and if they are fed right, they will not complain when they are sheared. If they do complain, it is because we, as pastors, are not feeding them properly.

One time I preached a sermon,—or perhaps I should say that I gave a talk regarding some campaign,—and when I came down out of the pulpit, an elderly lady stepped up to me and said, "Brother Maxwell, I am dis­appointed. I came here to listen to a real spiritual sermon, but it is all money, money, money." That set me to thinking, and I went home and be­gan to read the "Testimonies," and I found the statement that Christ was to be uplifted in every sermon that was preached. I made up my mind right there that I would never again speak on a campaign subject, or raise funds for any purpose whatsoever, without making Christ the center and the circumference of that appeal. I have found that the plan works, and I think if we will observe that prin­ciple, our difficulties about the Sabbath services will be solved.

Voice: What would a person do if all he had was the eleven o'clock serv­ice through which to reach the people? For example, take the district super­intendent who has under his care from five to eight churches, and is respon­sible for all the financial objectives and all the campaigns in each of these churches. Perhaps he can visit each church but once in six weeks, and then meets the people only at the Sabbath morning hour. How much personal visiting in the homes of the families in his district would he be expected to do in order to secure the co-opera­tion of the people in the campaign work?

P. M. BROucuy, president, Buenos Aires Conference, Argentina: I would like to say in reply to that question, that the superintendent of a district ought to do as much personal work from his office, when he is carrying on the Harvest Ingathering or Big Week campaigns, as is done by any pastor in charge of a local church. In my experience, I have found that the best way to carry on personal work and raise the spiritual standard, is in con­nection with these campaigns. Where it is possible to visit the people, and have prayer with them, we can secure their co-operation in whatever is needed to be done, and they will co­operate on a spiritual basis. Where it is not possible to visit them, we can accomplish the same results through correspondence.

I will have to confess here that I was converted to the idea of the Har­vest Ingathering work through a letter which Brother Westphal wrote me. There was a time when I believed it was impossible for me to do anything in that campaign. The missionary sec­retary wrote a letter to me, saying that I would either have to go out in the Harvest Ingathering or leave the Lord's work, and I was ready to think that it would be necessary for me to follow the latter course. But Brother Westphal did some spiritual work with me by correspondence, and after I got his letter I was able to collect thou­sands of dollars. I think this is one of the ways that we can carry on and do our personal work.

N. P. Neilsen, president, South Bra­zil Union Conference: Referring to an­other matter which has been presented here, with reference to the relation­ship between the evangelist and the pastor, and as to where the responsi­bility for loss of membership might lie, I feel that in a discussion of this kind we should have statements on both sides of the question, and yet hew straight to the line.

First, the evangelist is not expected, under our present policy, to remain in the city where he is holding meet­ings for an indefinite length of time. If he does his work as he should, and brings people to the deciding point,—gets them, as we say, over the line,—instructs them as thoroughly as they can be instructed in a short period of time in the doctrines, that evangelist ought not to hold back any point of our message or our truth from those converts. But we all recognize that after a person is converted, he is only a babe in Christ; that after he is con­verted and born again, he must grow up. He needs to be fed. He cannot walk or stand alone very well. Now, if that evangelist is not expected to remain with the convert very long, then the pastor must step in and take the responsibility of feeding him, so that he can grow. He must look after the growth of the new convert.

I think we do wrong to lay all the responsibility on the evangelist for those who may leave us after they have been brought into the church. If the evangelist has done as good work as he should, it is likely that, even with the most careful effort, some will be brought in who are not fully converted. We have the statement that when the seed is sown, it falls upon different kinds of ground; and while that is true, and we cannot al­ways expect results to be the same in every case, yet I feel that the evan­gelist should do more thorough work than is often done. If he has a thou­sand in his congregation, and a hun­dred want to be baptized, it may be difficult to know all these people per­sonally in a way to find out what their true spiritual condition is. But the evangelist should so organize his work as to make it possible for his asso­ciates and helpers to visit each can­didate for baptism, and see that thor­ough preparation is made.

There is such a thing as the gift of evangelism, and there is another gift which makes a man a pastor; the Bible speaks of both. The point which I wish to emphasize is, that after the new members are brought in by the evangelist, these other brethren, the pastors, should do the personal work needed, and very greatly needed; and they have the time to do the personal work that the Lord wants to have done, which the evangelist does not have time to do. 

I don't know that I need to say any­thing more about personal work than has been emphasized. But I do feel that we must not lay all the blame upon the evangelist for those who leave the truth. Neither must we lay all the blame upon the pastor. Per­haps the responsibility should be shared equally. The Bible says that one man planteth, and another man watereth, but that it is God who gives the increase. It is often the case that the evangelist plants the seed, and perhaps it is the pastor who waters it; but God gives the increase. Brethren, it is all one good work. I pray for harmony and unity, and I believe we should stand together in carrying the responsibility.

Sad it is that so many are leaving the truth all the time. It is not neces­sary that so many leave us, if we con­sider that it is God who is doing the work. Just the other day, in visiting with friends here at this Conference, a little incident was told me by a good old brother, which to my mind is quite suggestive. He told of a visit which one of our workers made to the home of a sick sister; and the worker talked with the sister about many things, but he forgot to pray with her. Then he said that a good sister in the same church to which this sick woman be­longed came to visit her—one of our humble lay members, she was—and without very many words, she took hold of the sick sister's hand, and kneeling beside the bed she offered a prayer to God. Now in reality the thing which helped that sick woman was not what the worker said to her, but it was what that good sister did. And, brethren, we can conserve time and accomplish more by going right to the heart of a soul with the message that saves our own souls. We have no time to waste in talking about the weather, the wind, and all that kind of thing. We have a living message from a living God to give to a dying world. And when the evangelist or the pastor is connected with heaven, the power of God will accompany the giving of this message.

A.G. Daniells. We are coming to the closing moment of the afternoon session. I am sure this has been a very good day. I have been deeply in­terested in the suggestions offered and the counsel given. And as I was sit­ting here, I wondered how we are going to keep hold of these good things and put them into execution when we return to our fields. We may hear a lot of good things today, and many more tomorrow, and still more the next day, and are likely to become so confused with it all that we shall fail to retain any of the helpful things which are produced here, and thus this occasion will not mean much more to us than a matter of entertainment. We must agree upon some way in which we can put the very best of this counsel together in such shape that we can take it with us and make use of it.